"Alas Babylon" discussion

[eeyore]

Thank you

[WolfBrother]

Here are relevant parts that influenced Jerry and I, along with one I missed.  Having read a history of the Lewis and Clark expedition the significance is huge.

Iron Ratioins
If the worst happened, this would be their iron rations for a desperate time. If nothing happened, it would all keep. He selected a jar of English beef tea, a sealed package of bouillon cubes, a jar of Swiss chocolates and a sealed tin of hard candies, a canned Italian cheese, and a few other small items.
WB note included a jar of instant coffee, non-dairy creamer, and at least one box of sugar cubes.


He never had enough fats, or sweets, or starches, and the greater part of each day was usually spent in physical effort of one kind or another
WB note - the Lewis and Clark history noted how the men ate YUGE amounts of meat and stayed hungry.  Once they were at their Ft in Oregon and could get fats, starches, and sugars (honey) their hunger was more or less eliminated.


WB Note - SALT influence.  Several pages were devoted to this part.
In August they ran out of salt, armadillos destroyed the yam crop, and the fish stopped biting. That terribly hot August was the month of disaster.

The end of the corn and exhaustion of the citrus crop had been inevitable. Armadillos in the yams was bad luck, but bearable. But without fish and salt their survival was in doubt.

As soon as they were out of salt it seemed that almost everything required salt, most of all the human body. Day after day the porch thermometer stood at ninety-five or over and every day all of them had manual labor to do, and miles to walk. They sweated rivers. They sweated their salt away, and they grew weak, and they grew ill. And all of Fort Repose grew weak and ill for there was no salt anywhere.

Attached is the word doc conversion/edit of Alas Babylon.  I'd suggest this one over the .pdf

[230gr]

Although Florida was a major salt producer for the South during the Civil War, the salt works where always on the coasts. Fort Repose was based on the small town of Tangerine, as I understand it, and that would be some 80 miles inland and I never heard of natural salty seeps there. I think they would have had to barter for salt.

A question on the radioactive gold loot. I would not think there would be much of as it would have to absorb quite a dose of gamma radiation directly. Fallout would not make the metal itself radioactive. Would it?   

[Jerry D Young]

It is called induced radiation. It takes high radiation to do it, so it is only near ground zero. But a very quick trip into the hot zone not long after a blast could be done without a fatal dose. The problem is, in the story, those that wore the items were getting low, but constant doses of Gamma radiation for a significant period of time, resulting in a fatal dose.

Just my opinion.

[230gr]

I don't think Radiation Meters where generally available to civilians at that time so there would be no way to tell if it was radioactive. Definitely would put a glitch in the gold trade.

Of course back then all out coins from dimes on up where 90% silver so would our paper currency keep some value? So the high prices would rise from the scarcity and demand for most goods?   

[TWP]

Induced radioactivity needs neutron bombardment, which is produced in the initial fission or fusion reaction of the bomb.

Some (small amount) of the Uranium or Plutonium remain unreacted, are vaporized and do emit a small amount of neutrons, but not enough to serious effect (transmute) atoms near ground zero (that is after the blast).  They are still radioactive and also chemically a poison.

The big danger is from the radioactive decay of the atomic isotopes transmuted in the initial blast and the remaining Uranium or Plutonium.  They will be emitting alpha, beta and gamma radiation.  These atoms are in the blast cloud and get spread widely by winds.

So, if gold  or silver was close enough to ground zero, they could get some dose of neutrons and be transmuted, but they would need to be in a narrow zone beyond the vaporizing range but close enough to get a lot of neutrons.

Needless to say, I'm not going near the blast zone, but there will be scavengers who risk it.

[230gr]

Usually, in Atomic TEOTWAWKI scenarios, nuked cities are still considered a major source
of salvage for many items besides jewelry. I think it would be a necessary eventually. 

close enough to ground zero.....get some dose of neutrons

How close can they safely get to ground 0 before the salvage items would become dangerous and how would you know that limit? 

[TWP]

How close is a function of time and distance.

Time, because the decay (half-life) rate is different for every isotope.

Distance because the amount of transmuted isotopes will decrease the farther way from ground zero.

If you are dealing with "fallout", it may have been spread from many miles away... This is not an encouraging fact.

This is where time comes into play.  If you can shelter for several half-lives for the more dangerous isotopes, then the danger is reduced (NOT eliminated).   This SHOULD be several weeks MINIMUM, but even after a few days, you may have to risk short time exposure when you leave your shelter.

Without the ability to actually detect radiation from radioactive elements, you are gambling...

The third factor is shielding, between you and the radiating elements.  You cannot have too much and even then it might not be enough.  Again, you are gambling with your life, so you must be really needing whatever you are looking for...  Got Lead underwear? Got lead armor?

Remember that not only do you want to avoid actual radiation from decaying isotopes, but you want to avoid INGESTING (breathing or eating) many of those elements, since they are chemically poisonous.  Think Uranium, Plutonium, Thorium, etc.

Did I mention that you REALLY have to need whatever you are looking for?  Because it might be worth your life to acquire it.

Jerry D. has some excellent resources on radiation which he can point you at.  They are available online and/or at may bookstores.

[Jerry D Young]

How close can they safely get to ground 0 before the salvage items would become dangerous and how would you know that limit?

Measurement by instruments is about the only practical way. And that would pretty much require bringing the items outside of the high radiation zone in which the item was located, since local radiation would overwhelm the meter probe, since the items would be emitting low levels of radiation. Only once they are outside of the area of high background radiation could the level of radiation they were emitting be accurately measured. It is not that the items would be high range emitters, it is that most of the items that people would risk serious radiation sickness to acquire would be kept very close to them, or worn, where constant exposure to even low doses of radiation eventually cause radiation sickness of various degrees, up to death.

Just my opinion.