Would you buy a solar array?

[xoruss]

  I had a visit from a sales person the other day explaining why I should buy a grid tied solar array for my home. Missouri is one of the states where the utility companies do not pay for any excess energy I might produce and put into their system. She proposed 6240 watt system containing 24 panels producing 8789 kwh. The loan would be 1.9%. $30,513 total price (gulp)with a tax credit of $9154 to be applied to the loan. The payment of 166.87/month is a bit more then I pay for electricity now and it is a 12 year note. Missouri is one state that grants almost every rate increase requested by a utility. The projected rates from power companies is .26/ kwh. The projected cost of solar power is .11/kwh.
  I asked if the system could be disconnected from the grid and hooked to a battery back up and she said a number of her prepper clients had modified their installation to do that very thing.
  My concerns:
1) the debt itself
2) I don't need to file taxes right now because I don't make enough. I could file, I guess, to get  a refund against money I don't pay in taxes but don't feel good about that. If I install the system I will have to file to obtain the tax credit to apply against the loan.
3) If the system can actually be disconnected from the grid.
  OK, any input on this?
Russ

[owldancer]

For my three cents.

1. It should be untied from the grid, since you get no benefit from being tied to the grid and giving the electricity to the utility company.

2. If it is a tax credit, I believe you have to pay taxes in order to get the credit.
    If you don't pay taxes how will you get the credit, so the system would cost you the extra $9154.

3. What is the life span for the equipment. Would you make it back in the difference of the electrical bill vs the power it generates.  How about the bad days with no sun light.

4. How much would the battery systems and controls cost?

All of that being said, I still like the idea if the power goes out that you would still have power.

[xoruss]

Owldancer
  In theory, I am told I would actually receive money back that I never paid in taxes in the first place. That is the part that I am hung up on.
Russ

[beorn]

I dont like it to much red tape and banking involved in the deal

some other questions i would want answered
what warranty on the panels? solar panel warranties have always been a bit shady.

In my opinion those panels could easily drop to 50% or less efficiency over that period lots of stories on the internet
about that sort of thing.

who does the maintainance and who pays?

any regulatory hurdles now or in the future for having them standalone as in the case of grid down there are some places that do not allow it for safety reasons.

you would probably not want to move them but the option would be important to me if i was buying them.

[TWP]

xoruss;

I would consult at trustworthy accountant, one who specifically works with your state's solar installations.

There are some serious "gotchas' with a grid tied system, especially when there is no buy-back guarantee.

My understanding is that the lifetime of panels ( half-life is time to fall to 50% output )  is approximately 20 years, and it depends on who you're talking too...

Salesmen will not be eager to state the real life of the panels...  Customers and research groups may give you better and more trustworthy information.

Your battery system lifetime is MUCH shorter, if you go with lead-acid batteries.  On the order of a decade or so...  Lead-Acid cells are very finicky about charge and discharge.  You can kill them with a deep discharge and with overcharging.  A good battery monitory/charger is an absolute necessity ($$$$).

The more expense battery route is Nickle-Iron cells, which have much longer lifecycles, on the order of 30+ years.
Nickle-Iron cells are also much more forgiving of overcharge and Complete discharge.

One brand name is Iron Edison... That is not a recommendation, as I have NOT used their product, but they do have much information available.

Ask to be put in contact with customers who already have the same grid-tie systems installed.  If they refuse, walk away...

Finally, an online search for your state might reveal much more information, particularly customer feedback.

[edit] for more information than you probably need right now.  Research is recommended...

[xoruss]

  These are all good and valid questions and, except for the idea of looking for an accountant familiar with solar, these are also the same questions I have been trying to answer myself. It wasn't hard to listen to the sales pitch, take the calculated presentation and tells the rep, I will contact you later. From what I understand, there is no battery storage system until I disconnect from the grid and put hook up a battery system. What I need to find out is, when I disconnect from the grid, will I need to repay the tax credit. Either way I hate getting involved with the IRS again.
Russ

[pqtb]

I am not current on solar installation prices but that one seems a little high.  Is the tax credit federal or state? 

[TWP]

...
What I need to find out is, when I disconnect from the grid, will I need to repay the tax credit.
...
Russ

That is a question for the sales rep and, again, if they refuse to answer, walk away.

I would expect an answer along the line of:  "That is your responsibility, talk to your tax advisor..."

I'd be very skeptical if they are not upfront with their answer because other people DO disconnect and go to battery systems.

[Jerry D Young]

No.

Start accumulating solar power components slowly, a few items at a time, yourself and put them in storage. Set the electronics up at least once, after you have them all, and connect a panel or two, and enough batteries to get the appropriate voltage if not 12v. Keep it in storage, and assemble when needed.

Just enough live batteries to test the system and use it occasionally if need be. The rest of the batteries get dry, plus the acid if lead-acid, or the appropriate compound if not lead-acid.

To much work to get the credit, (Though I see nothing wrong with taking the credit even if it does not offset taxes, but creates a refund. You have been paying taxes for many years in the past, and are paying a great deal for the electricity. The credit is to get people to put in the systems to help lower the load on the electrical system. You would be doing them a favor, and there is no reason not to offset some of the cost.), to many controls on the system, will not be anywhere near EMP protected, cannot really specify the type of system you want, you would have to add your own batteries, anyway, there probably will not be provisions to add a generator, wind power, or micro-hydro power, and many other reasons to not do it.

Just my opinion.

[xoruss]

  I pieced together a small system in my home back in Utah but it only produced 500 watts/hour and hooked onto a bank of 12 6 v golf cart batteries. I used it to power a 12 volt lighting system I had in the home, radio equipment and a small 12v TV/VCR. It was never big enough to do much more than that. 
  There is a lot to think about.
Russ

[TWP]

xoruss,

As Jerry noted in his reply, and I concur, a grid-tie system has one major drawback:  If / when the grid goes down, you lose power too.

For that kind of money, I would look into a stand-alone solar - battery system.  But that is an upfront cost to you and likely would require a loan / mortgage etc.  I know I'm not independently wealthy and could not afford to buy the system.

If your state doesn't offer a power buy-back program, then you are still ahead of the game because you, effectively if not literally, have cut the tie to commercial electricity.  "They" (TPTB) probably won't be happy about it and many states require a grid tie-in for all homes, but you don't have to use much of their power...

If you live in a state that Does buy-back alternative energy, then that just helps to pay off the system a little faster.

Bottom line, less dependence is better.

[Clay]

I was in a similar situation myself and after looking at it closely I decided to pass it up. Most of the reasons why are stated above. Since then I have been slowly building myself a system based on my needs and that has turned out to be ok. I started with the radio shack and moved on from there.

[owldancer]

Clay,

What are you using or recommend to get started in order to build the system.

[xoruss]

   Yet one more deal breaker with this idea. Since I don't make enough to pay taxes, there would be no tax credit. That would make the system $246/month for 144 months. I guess I will need to save enough, after buying and installing a wood stove this year, to buy solar components. Like all my other projects, this will take time.
Russ

[Clay]

Clay,

What are you using or recommend to get started in order to build the system.

I am by no means an expert. I have harbor freight solar panels running 6v golf cart batteries from Sam's club. Nothing special, by any means.