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Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"

Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« on: March 16, 2018, 01:00:13 PM »
The following line is from a paragraph in Ch 2 of Tired Old Mans story "The Rock"

The smart ones did as the men from Palmdale did; they went primitive and didn’t count on modern technology to save them.

In other forums when TEOCAWKI/TEOTWAWKI/PAW/very Long Term SHTF worlds have been discussed, I've noted that some folks seem to think the modern technology they had would keep them going.

I've always thought we would drop back to a post War of Northern Aggression pre-WWI lifestyle.

Best example I can think of is medical.  For the most part, antibiotics will not be available.  So a cut on a lower leg, even if it was washed etc, could become infected and THAT could very well require amputation.

Another area - food preservation - drying, smoking, salting, pickling, canning will become the ways we are able to keep stuff longer.

So, what do you think?  How accurate is TOM's statement going to be?
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WolfBrother

Most folks are happy being a part of the Great Shepherds Flock.
Some folks choose to be wolves and prey on the flock.
Some folks choose to defend the flock and confront the wolf.

I am a SheepDog.

Offline TWP

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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 01:34:30 PM »
Good topic!

I think we would revert to a Lower technology lifestyle.  Some of our current tech will survive, but the ability to recreate many of our tools will NOT recover quickly enough to return to "Civilization-As-We-Know-It".

I expect some radio will survive, some computer technology (perhaps not very useful).  The internet will revert to sneaker-net based data exchanges.  If it dies, it cannot be replaced because the ability to build these devices may no longer exist.

Food production and processing may be forced back to early 1900 levels.  Manual farming, with some assistance from draft animals (horses, cows, oxen and others).

Steam power will NOT come back quickly because of the infrastructure needed to build steam engines.  Think Mining, Forging, Milling, etc.  These technologies are NOT presently available and will not return quickly.  Several generations have passed and that knowledge is only available in books at this point.

If we have any older steam engines still in storage, they may be refurbished.  The rail lines are unlikely to simply go away, although they will need maintenance which will be hard to find.  Perhaps local rail service might return for a time, until repair parts become scarce.

In the long term, after the crisis has passed and people have sorted themselves out into communities, again, the survivors will be able to live like my grandparents and great grandparents did.

All of this assumes a world-wide collapse (a possibility, but (IMO) lower probability).  If some parts of the world are spared from a total collapse, they will become the centers for a rebuild of society.  I'm NOT saying we will return to the same society we have today, if that is even a desirable course of action... ???

I look forward to reading the thoughts of others on the topic.
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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 02:57:28 PM »
Have to define what the 'modern technology' consists of. Cell phones? Gone. Internet? Likely also gone.

an antibiotics be manufactured, assuming at least a junior college-level lab and graduate-level knowledge? Yes. Certainly not 3rd generation macrolides and that sort but there are a fairly decent assortment of older antibiotics that can be manufactured at a cottage industry level.

RR
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Offline TWP

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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 03:43:37 PM »
Rascal,

I think it would be wise to have at least the minimum set of documentation, in our prepper libraries, on how to make suitable antibiotics, at the "cottage industry" level.

A knowledge of "natural" antibiotics would be valuable too.  That includes herbal remedies and historically useful compounding recipes.  I would like to avoid a return to the use of Calomel (Mercury compound) and other such questionable "medicines"...

I acknowledge that this would be better done by someone with a decent set of bio-chem skills...  I expect there will be a few "survivors" with that level of training, even if they are not prepper-aware or able to deal with a vastly changed world.  My experience from both my own college ed and what I see coming out of our colleges today is that there may be a few who are still capable, post "event".

These people (those with the skill set) are worth cultivating as preppers, both now and post-event.  They may need special hand-holding and "babysitting" but that skill set is very valuable.

Do you have any links to sources for documents, books, manuals which contain this knowledge?  Your own book, "Austere Medicine" is in this category, but we would need precise instructions on the techniques of bio-chem synthesis.  I know there are college level textbooks which address this topic, but they are also not a low cost option.  I don't rule them out, but would prefer to have sources which are within the reach of most preppers.

[EDIT] Let me add a link to a source of used textbooks at somewhat lower-than-new prices:

https://www.textbooks.com/Catalog/MGZ/Biochemistry.php
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 03:49:19 PM by TWP »
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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 03:50:10 PM »
I have documents for the manufacture of insulin and IV fluids, but not antibiotics (yet). I am going to start looking for the specific 'recipes' for the antis.

RR
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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »
Have to define what the 'modern technology' consists of. Cell phones? Gone. Internet? Likely also gone.

an antibiotics be manufactured, assuming at least a junior college-level lab and graduate-level knowledge? Yes. Certainly not 3rd generation macrolides and that sort but there are a fairly decent assortment of older antibiotics that can be manufactured at a cottage industry level.

RR

RR
I was a Chem Major before crossing over to the dark side to become a computer nerd.

Any sources on the "how to" for the fairly decent assortment?

Look at the attachment - it came from another forum about 15 years ago.  I figure I could do the chemistry for that.  Not that I particularly want to but in a pinch ...

If nothing else having the info would help if, like in Lucifer's Hammer, a wizard happens to wander in.  (The wizard was a big time genius at the JPL)
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WolfBrother

Most folks are happy being a part of the Great Shepherds Flock.
Some folks choose to be wolves and prey on the flock.
Some folks choose to defend the flock and confront the wolf.

I am a SheepDog.

Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 04:47:52 PM »
Not what I have but that certainly adds to it.

RR
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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 05:06:24 PM »
Zinc tablets and solutions, courtesy of the WHO.

RR
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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 05:07:18 PM »
Hint: use citrus mold, NOT bread mold or you'll never get enough to make a dose much less several.

RR
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Offline Jerry D Young

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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 07:23:04 PM »
I am going to be a major difference-of-opinion poster on this one.

The majority of my thoughts are in the attachments. The first one addresses the time-regression aspect that usually comes up in these types of discussions. It directly addresses this thread topic. It is also included in the second attachment. A really long, rambling collection of many of my posts that in some way relate to this thread. It is a WIP, and as such, there is a great deal of duplication, as I copied over many things from many earlier articles, many of which contained included information from even earlier combinations. I have not had a chance to work on it in a long time, so feel free to scan through anything that is duplicated, or that does not hold any interest.

But I want to add a few things that I never did get around to putting down anywhere else.

On electrical/electronic aspects:
While the infrastructure to produce new items (radios, computers, large motors, large HD batteries, etc.) will be lost for some time, the information to produce them will not likely be lost. At least, if I accomplish one of my life goals, there will be thousands, and in many cases, millions of the items still around in usable condition for many months to years. And many of those can be, and will be kept in operation, or put back into operation, and used to great effect. Perhaps even more so than some are now. For instance, a smart phone, which is basically a phone for the most part, and used as such by most people, will become an extremely useful data and information storage device that is portable, and has many other useful features. From a calculator to a full computer more capable than many personal computers produced prior to the mid 1990s, capable of spreadsheet operations, and a whole multitude of other activities that will make life in the PAW much easier and productive.

While there will not likely be the world wide internet as we now know it, there are several ways to link the various computer systems and other electronic systems together over long distances so information and processing can be shared. It will likely be several weeks to many months before the systems are in wide use, but I believe they will be. I know Amateur radio operators that have the capability now.

On medical aspects:
Yes, we will not have the capability for most of the very high technology/high infrastructure dependent medical advances that can save lives, and prolong life, despite extremely complex and serious medical conditions. To put it bluntly, there will be many deaths in the aftermath of an event that destroys or limits current medical infrastructure. But afterwards, knowing that some things will be fatal, or people will never fully recover from some things that they now can, medical technology and practice will continue to do what can be done to save those that can be with what is available, and provide the best quality of life that can be provided. And while super drugs and other pharmaceuticals will not be available, many will not be needed, as the problems they help correct will not occur anyway, as those at risk will be dead from other causes, or due to an enforced better diet and exercise environment, will not have nearly as severe a problem as they would living the lifestyle that we do now.

And while even some of the earliest medical treatment advances may not be available for a long time, the medical profession, and the alternative medical professions have learned a great deal about how to treat the survivable problems without using some of the items modern technology allows us to create. Not only are some of the 'old' treatments still just as effective as they ever were, many new ones have been developed, and even more importantly, shared due to our current communications technology. And with enhanced growing systems that will still be available, regional and area products that were only available in limited locations can now be grown almost anywhere, so the full range of non-technological treatments will be available, once things settle down, and people are again growing and producing items beyond what is needed for immediate personal survival. Not to mention, there are other items that do not depend on plants that are now used with much more effect given the widespread knowledge of their existence, and the ability to produce them.

On general technology aspects:
While some will not be able to use much of our current technology, there will be many that will be able to, at least in some areas. The equipment will still exist, the skills will still exist, at least for a while, and as people see the needs and possibilities, new ways to combine old and new technology will be developed to give nearly the same results as the newest technology before the event did. Possibly not as quickly, but still highly effective.

One example. CNC machining. Both for wood and metal projects. Modern technology has given us very powerful motors that are small, and can be moved on transport mechanisms to do very precise work. With that tech available, it is, of course, used. But the same stepper motors that require very little electrical power can move the work table almost as easily as they can a cutter head that takes advantage of the powerful motors, using flexible cable. But if you make the cutter head fixed, driven not by a small powerful electric motor, but a stationary engine (solar powered Stirling cycle or stationary wood gas engine) using a jack-shaft drive system, with just a small amount of electrical power the same stepper motors can be controlled by a tiny PI3b computer to move the work table. You still have a CNC device, just using a combination of old and new tech. And that is just one example. There are many more that I can think of, and there are people out there much smarter and inventive than I am.

My main point, however, which is stated more fully in the first attachment, is that we will not, literally cannot, revert to an earlier time. We will use much of that earlier technology, with new technology enhancements, but the infrastructure that existed in those earlier times simply will not be there when the current infrastructure is lost. People will not be able to get goods, tools, foods, raw materials, and many other things that were just as available in those days, that our modern set of goods, tools, foods, raw materials, and many other things are to us now. The entire production and transport infrastructure around the world will cease to exist, and the 1800s, or 1900s, or 1700s, or 1600s versions will not suddenly appear. We will develop them again, and will use some of the newer technology to provide other alternatives, but we will not have access to very much that is not already in our area of operations. The colonists had a huge support structure behind them when they began coming to the New World. They had manufactured axes and saws. They had printing equipment. They had paper. They had rope and other cordage. They had metal knives. They had cotton from Egypt. They had silk from China. They had guns from England and Germany. It all came over using the infrastructure of the time. Without that infrastructure, the colonists would not have made it. As evidenced by some of the groups that did not make, due to the failure to get the support from England they required.

So, I believe we will be living a 21st century lifestyle, using technology from the most recent to the most ancient, but we will not be living an 1800s lifestyle.

Just my opinion.



 
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Jerry D Young

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and always remember TANSTAAFL

(TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert A. Heinlein)

Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 09:26:16 AM »
Jerry,
My post War of Northern Aggression/pre-WWI statement is a generality that can punctured in a number of ways.

Example - Germ theory and sanitation practices are two parts of medicine that developed during that time.
1881 Louis Pasteur proved germ theory.
1846 - a Hungarian doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis - advocated for hand washing by Drs after performing autopsies and before treating patients.  He obviously was crazy, that must be why TPTB had him committed to an insane asylum.

Science was moving along in a number of ways during that time.  We will have that knowledge. 

My opinion - we will more or less be living a late 1800's early 1900's lifestyle in a number of ways
 - the more will be due to what caused the PAW
 - the less will be due to our knowledge and ability to engineer technology based on that knowledge. Books such as  "The Knowledge" are going to be very important us.
https://www.amazon.com/Knowledge-Rebuild-Civilization-Aftermath-Cataclysm/dp/0143127047
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WolfBrother

Most folks are happy being a part of the Great Shepherds Flock.
Some folks choose to be wolves and prey on the flock.
Some folks choose to defend the flock and confront the wolf.

I am a SheepDog.

Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 09:29:22 AM »

Jerry,
My post War of Northern Aggression/pre-WWI statement is a generality that can punctured in a number of ways.

Example - Germ theory and sanitation practices are two parts of medicine that developed during that time.
1881 Louis Pasteur proved germ theory.
1846 - a Hungarian doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis - advocated for hand washing by Drs after performing autopsies and before treating patients.  He obviously was crazy, that must be why TPTB had him committed to an insane asylum.

Science was moving along in a number of ways during that time.  We will have that knowledge.  That knowledge will make the living less like that time period. 



My opinion - as a generality, we will more or less be living a late 1800's early 1900's lifestyle in a number of ways
 - the more will be due to what caused the PAW
 - the less will be due to our knowledge and ability to engineer technology based on that knowledge. Books such as  "The Knowledge" are going to be very important us.
https://www.amazon.com/Knowledge-Rebuild-Civilization-Aftermath-Cataclysm/dp/0143127047
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WolfBrother

Most folks are happy being a part of the Great Shepherds Flock.
Some folks choose to be wolves and prey on the flock.
Some folks choose to defend the flock and confront the wolf.

I am a SheepDog.

Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 04:26:25 PM »
Additional thought.

My Dad's family did not have electricity until WWII when he was drafted and they moved the family home into the town I grew up in.
(Grandad had a 7x365 job that required him to run a water pump every day - when he got sick/died, the area superintendent put my Grandmother on the rolls while Dad did the job.  He was too young to be on the rolls for what later became known a Mobile Oil.  About the time the draft board was wanting Dad, the need for the water station ended.  Mobile gave the house to my Grandmother and paid to move it).  My granddad engineered an elevated water tank and they had running water to the house from it and they had a spring house to keep stuff cooler.

My Mom's family didn't have indoor plumbing from the time they moved there right at the end of WWII until during the Kennedy administration.  When we'd go there, my every day chore was to drop a bail down into the well, haul it up, fill 2 buckets, repeat until all were full for my Grandmother.  The VA had made a mistake.  They declared an uncle of mine 100% disabled about 1950.  They didn't adjust the disability payment until an audit in 1962.  He received all back pension and interest in one big check.  He added a full bathroom onto his room, paid to have the well re-worked, a well house built, and a pump plumbed in.  He ran a line to his bathroom with a cutout to the kitchen, from the hot water heater in the bathroom, he ran a line to the kitchen.  That was the first time that my Grandmother had running water in her kitchen and the first time they had the ability to bathe/shower whenever they wanted to.  They had electricity and propane to cook with.  Part of my Granddad's retirement was a ton and a half of coal delivered each fall.  They heated with a pot  belly stove in the kitchen.  My Granddad continued to use the outhouse until he just couldn't anymore.

Both sides of my family lived late 1800 early 1900 lifestyles thru WWII and beyond.   I experienced a little of it when we'd go to my mom's parents.  Plowing behind a horse, drawing water from a well, using an outhouse.  They had knowledge and used it to advantage.  It helped.

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WolfBrother

Most folks are happy being a part of the Great Shepherds Flock.
Some folks choose to be wolves and prey on the flock.
Some folks choose to defend the flock and confront the wolf.

I am a SheepDog.

Offline pqtb

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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2018, 06:21:10 PM »
Heavy machinery use will grind to a halt as fuel and replacement parts disappear.   Food production will take a serious hit with the lack of machinery.  The Amish have proven that you can use old and modern technology together.   The deciding factor will be who survives the first years of the event and what skills they have.   The skills and resources that survive in any given area will dictate the level of technology in use in that area.  Once things stabilize trade will help spread the knowledge and goods from one region to another.  If books and technology can be preserved recovery will advance faster as the working model and theory will be available. 

I have to agree with Jerry that a lot of the medical problems will disappear in the beginning of the event.   Natural selection will remove those who have poor immunity and medical challenges that requires high tech medicine and machines to survive. 

The future will be decided by those that survive the event and what they pass on to future generations.

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Offline 230gr

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Re: Discussion of a line from a TOM story "The Rock"
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2018, 07:11:27 PM »
The 20% of the surviving population and their progeny will be of much sturdier stock the the population today. These genetic bottlenecks have happened and changed the course of the the human race and usually for the better.
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