Home Page

EMP- A hypothetical scenario

Offline xoruss

  • ****
  • 255
EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« on: February 05, 2017, 08:41:18 PM »
1) We know that Russia has EMP generators that have been mounted on SU-24s because one took out the weapons systems on the USS Donald Cook, a 4th generation guided missile destroyer in the Black Sea in April of 2014. One pass of the SU-24 and the weapons systems of that ship were taken  out.
 
2) We know that Iran is anxious to have an EMP weapon either mounted on a ballistic Missile or...

3) We know that Russia and I ran are in a relationship between purchasing and allegedly weapons development

4) What if Iran was able to recreate the EMP system from the Russian aircraft on a larger basis and mount it on a... say... a ship.

While it would not be as effective as a high altitude burst over KC, what would happen if their ship was able to cruise along our coastline? The shipping lanes?

Russ
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Re: EMP
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2017, 10:49:38 PM »
The portable emp thing has been around for awhile. Here's a few links on what the U.S. has been doing:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/us-air-force-confirms-boeings-electromagnetic-pulse-weapon/

http://mil-embedded.com/news/raytheon-emp-missile-tested-by-boeing-usaf-research-lab/

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/10/29/emp-missile-microwave/

This one deals with manipulation of enemy radar:

http://mil-embedded.com/guest-blogs/sixth-generation-warfare-manipulating-space-and-time/


So we're NOT just sitting on our donkey's when it comes to emp. Only thing we can't control is a solar flare like what happened back in the 1800's.

friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline TWP

  • *****
  • 4002
  • Opinionated and Willing to "Discuss" it.
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2017, 02:16:05 AM »
Should your hypothetical scenario come to pass, we are still in the same situation as we are at present...

Plan on having multiple backup devices in EMP proof storage.  "One is none, two is one and three might be enough."

I do admit that having a hand-held EMP device would be overwhelmingly tempting when the cars with "boombox" speakers drive through our parking lot at 3am...

But I digress...--

If you were on a boat/ship when one of these devices were deployed, your propulsion might be lost, which means your BOV had better be a sailboat or a rowboat or you're stuck and at the mercy of the tides.  Perhaps a diesel motor might survive an EMP "hit" if the battery starter system had a manual backup (pull or crank start).

In the case of military vessels at sea, few if any are shielded against EMP.  I have no way of knowing if new designs take this into consideration.  One can hope, but still not be sure.

Commercial ships will not have any shielding and are the proverbial "sitting duck" targets.  That means shipping and passenger vessels could be hijacked without damaging the hull, cargo or passengers.  Not good...  On the other hand, commercial vessels are probably not high priority targets in wartime.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Remember:  Google(r) is NOT your friend, use another search engine which DOES NOT track your online activity.

Offline xoruss

  • ****
  • 255
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2017, 05:13:41 AM »
  The rest of the story... A lady who I am seeing has never been all that aware of world events even though she has traveled the world. She called me last night and had a tone in her voice that told me something was troubling her. She said she was in a church meeting and overheard a conversation between a man she knew to be a doctor and an AF officer and someone she didn't know. When the officer said "EMP", her ears perked up because I had talked to her about the subject. She heard the officer/doctor tell his friend that he had found out the Iranians do have 2 ships with EMP generation capabilities and the concerns the military has about this potential threat. That triggered her mindset that she needs to be more informed and more prepared.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline TWP

  • *****
  • 4002
  • Opinionated and Willing to "Discuss" it.
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2017, 07:59:06 AM »
So, did you explain to her the need to store tinfoil?  He said, only half joking... ;)

I must assume that your friend must have at least one foot on the path toward prepping.

There isn't a whole lot we can do to reduce the anxiety which comes with knowing the risks, but acting to reduce personal risk can help make it less debilitating.

Talking to like-minded people is usually helpful too, unless those people are trying to increase the fear factor. (Scream, run and hide, etc.).  Avoid those types, if you can.

This forum is a case-in-point.  The therapist is in.  Contributions are welcome.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Remember:  Google(r) is NOT your friend, use another search engine which DOES NOT track your online activity.

Offline xoruss

  • ****
  • 255
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2017, 08:09:29 AM »
   It helps that one of her friends works with me in the Emergency Prep programs at church, she is over emergency comms,  and is as rabid a prepper as I am. So Katy knows what she needs to do about prepping but to hear an AF officer/Dr saying what he did with a sense of urgency in his voice  made her realize that she needs to come up to speed as I have been telling her to do.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline 230gr

  • *
  • 705
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2017, 10:38:07 AM »
If anyone is prepared for EMP is the military, it is the civilians and equipment that is the most vulnerable.  Portable EMP devices are going to make battlefield communications a nightmare I would think. 
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline TWP

  • *****
  • 4002
  • Opinionated and Willing to "Discuss" it.
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2017, 12:32:32 PM »
Re military comm equipment, it is possible to make them "hardened" against EMP attack, but most of the equipment currently deployed is (probably) not "hardened" and would be a liability.  I'm NOT an expert on milspec equipment, so this is just a guess based on cost and the lack of public notice about such shielding.  Not saying it isn't being done, but it is  not public knowledge (OPSEC?).

Civilian gear will become more expensive if it is designed for EMP resistance.  It would make more sense to build your own shielded comm shack and have spares in Faraday cages as backup.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Remember:  Google(r) is NOT your friend, use another search engine which DOES NOT track your online activity.

Offline Clay

  • ****
  • 351
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 01:29:24 PM »
Does anyone have a link to info about EMP effects on ships?

I wonder how it would effect a merchant ship. I have been aboard and at sea when the ship I was on was struck by lightning several times and it had zero effect. I believe this is due to the way a ship is grounded. This ship has computer controls for everything, far more than a car. I know lightning is not an EMP, but it was interesting to witness.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline xoruss

  • ****
  • 255
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 01:36:14 PM »
Clay,
  I was looking for information about EMP and ships and struck out. That is when I posted my question to the group.
Russ

friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline Jerry D Young

  • *
  • 1710
  • Seeker of Knowledge
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 02:08:33 PM »
Most of the US Navy's combat ships, and most assuredly the ones built or re-built within the last 15 years have from at least essential equipment EMP protected to very significant amounts of equipment protected from EMP. The same goes for combat aircraft to a major degree. As the Army and Marines have replaced and updated ground combat equipment and C4I, they have incorporated significant EMP protection.

But, protection does not mean absolutely no impact if they have to operate in an EMP rich environment. Some items will undoubted fail, for a variety of reasons. But the US military, all branches, is not nearly as vulnerable as often thought. They certainly are a very long way from being immune, but they will continue to be an effective fighting force on all fronts despite nuclear HEMP event, or repeated non-nuclear EMP generator attacks.

Plus, even before much of the mobile equipment hardening became large scale, all services adopted and put into practice extensive electronic failure by EMP procedures and practices. Even if they do lose some equipment, and they will and know it, they have procedures in place to be able to continue to fight effectively.

In the civilian sector, there are some of the majors that have hardened specific aspects of both their operations and their products to prevent major damage from an EMP. And, like the military, have plans to deal with the situation if they do lose any part of their infrastructure to EMP. But they are definitely the minority. In general, civilian industry, and especially commercial operations are highly vulnerable and will be shut down completely when we are hit with a HEMP or local EMP event.

And of course, despite the protections that have been put into place, a major HEMP will take down the majority of the electrical grid and infrastructure, which will have devastating impact on the rest of the infrastructure. And this is what we, as preppers, have to be ready to deal with.

Just my opinion.


Just my opinion.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Jerry D Young

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and always remember TANSTAAFL

(TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert A. Heinlein)

Offline Jerry D Young

  • *
  • 1710
  • Seeker of Knowledge
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 11:43:02 PM »
I forgot to address Clay's question. Woke up a bit ago and remembered I had planned on responding. So here goes.


Because of the way most modern ship a are constructed, there is quite a bit of EMP protection inherent in the basic design. Almost all wiring, in not literally all, is in metallic conduit. Or used to be. It is connected with metallic junction boxes. So the wiring is inside well grounded conduit pretty much everywhere. And most of the electrical and electronic devices are inside metallic cases. That does not leave many points of entry for the pulse.


However, anything with an antenna, exposed control wiring, unprotected face plates and several other spots that are vulnerable means EMP can damage the system. And probably will. But some systems with less exposure points might survive. If it is a [size=78%]HEMP device over the north Central US to affect as much of the country as possible, the power of the pulse offshore of any of our coasts is going to be much less than in the middle of the country, reducing the risk.[/size]


I know it is not a very diffinitive answer, but that is the best I can do.


Just my opinion.

friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Jerry D Young

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and always remember TANSTAAFL

(TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert A. Heinlein)

Offline Clay

  • ****
  • 351
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2017, 08:23:12 PM »
Thanks Jerry.

I think part of the reason the ships I work on might be better suited to handle an EMP is due to the fact that everything has to be intrinsicly safe. Since one little spark could mean one big boom we have to be very careful about everything. All wiring is shielded, all j-boxes are epoxied, all conduit is grounded, and all equipment is sealed. It's a total pain to work with, but it does make sense. All oil tankers built in the last 20 years are like this, maybe older too.

If there is an EMP event ever, all I hope for is getting back to a dock. ANY dock. I seriously doubt any refinery would be running after such an event.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline Jerry D Young

  • *
  • 1710
  • Seeker of Knowledge
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2017, 10:12:35 PM »
I forgot you were on a tanker. Additional set of problems, but I do thing at least some of the EMP effects will be mitigated somewhat.


Just my opinion.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Jerry D Young

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and always remember TANSTAAFL

(TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert A. Heinlein)

Offline TWP

  • *****
  • 4002
  • Opinionated and Willing to "Discuss" it.
Re: EMP- A hypothetical scenario
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2017, 01:48:54 AM »
Clay,  I see a possible problem with the difference between onboard Fire protection and EMP protection.

While junction boxes might be gas sealed, that seal is not conductive and would probably represent a physical gap in the EM shield itself, defeating the purpose as far as EMP is concerned.

Also glass lamp shields would expose the ends of power lines to EMP radiation.  It's not a large exposure, but not a total EM shield either.

Still, as Jerry points out, the fact that it is an encasing metal hull will probably offer far better shielding than, for instance a fiberglass or wood hull vessel.

It is possible to insert arc gaps in antenna lines (lightening suppressors) which could stand between the antenna and the receiver/transmitter and it's power supply.  This is true for an EMP shielded HAM station too.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Remember:  Google(r) is NOT your friend, use another search engine which DOES NOT track your online activity.