Boy Scouts

[owldancer]

First the disclaimer - I am a Boy Scout Leader, was a Boy Scout, my son is a Boy Scout. 
My first two children were daughters, they learned more then most Boy Scouts. 
My oldest once complained to me that I have taught them to do to much because most young men do not do half the things I taught them to do.

That being said I have dislike the changes in recent years to the organization.   Latest change is renaming it just "Scouts".

I am active because I believe in the program, where it helps young boys develop into men. I think they are usually good men as well.
It was one place where a young boy could still be a male.

With allowing young girls into it, the atmosphere will change (so I believe).
I am unsure if it will be a good move. 
It is a totally different when it is a mixed group of very young people (ages 10 to 18).
How do you tell a little girl when your out in the woods to just pee behind a tree.  (Yes, some would do it)
Somehow I think most mothers would not like that, so it would limit activities.
I think it is just to get numbers up.

We have had female leaders of all ages, and females were allowed into the older Boy Scouts programs such as Venture Crews, Explorers, etc.
In these programs they are already young men and young ladies. 

So I would like other peoples thoughts on this.

Maybe I am just getting old and don't like change.

[TWP]

I'm also old and don't like change...  (Young Whipper Snappers don't have a clue )

"Gender Non-specific Scouts" is the (politically) correct phrase...  Bah, Humbug.

Does the "Girl Scout" organization have a similar identity crisis?  I don't know, I've not heard anything about that organization in years.

Don't get me wrong on this.  I'm in favor of a level playing field for both sexes.

I'm Not in favor of a set of enforced rules which only attempt to address the "optics" on what it looks like to the press and those of a certain sociological mindset.  I know that kind of people, I taught in the same schools that they did...

What I hear about the Boy Scouts (I'll be flamed for that phrase too now) is that the change is intended to remove gender stereotyping.  What I interpret that to mean is "too much testosterone is bad for everyone"...

Let's also look at the other side of this coin.  Non-scouts face a world complete with gang warfare (both sexes), a family structure which, if present at all, is not teaching either sex how to become (responsible) adults.

When I was young (I know, cliche), we had the dreaded "Cliques" who tried to be the "cool" groups of kids in the neighborhood (look it up if you don't know the usage ).  Now it is gangs... which can get them dead...

So this change in Boy / Girl Scouting is Not (IMO) a change for the better.

I could go on, but will spare you all...

[Curmudgeon, Out]

[WolfBrother]

WB Edited to specific:

I am active because I believe in the program, where it helps young boys develop into men. I think they are usually good men as well.
It was one place where a young boy could still be a male.

So I would like other peoples thoughts on this.

I was a Boy Scout.
My son was a Boy Scout.
My Daughters were Girl Scouts.

What is there in the traditional  Boy Scout organization/skills/knowledge that a Girl can't do and benefit from?

I don't like it but CHANGE is here.

What will have to happen is a welcoming of new folks, a STRONG encouragement of Dad's and Mom's to participate in all aspects - including going into the wilderness/camping.

AND to answer the go behind a tree issue:
https://annaoutdoors.wordpress.com/2014/02/10/how-to-pee-in-the-woods-a-quick-tutorial-for-girls/
https://www.wikihow.com/Pee-Outside-as-a-Woman
http://www.breachbangclear.com/pee-woods-womens-outdoor-news/
https://www.thoughtco.com/how-to-pee-while-hiking-1766188
https://www.justroughinit.com/blog/when-nature-calls-nature-girls-guide-peeing-wilderness
http://www.snowqueenandscout.com/journal/2015/4/30/100daysofwilderness-day-17-what-pee-drying-method-do-you-use

https://amountaintophigh.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-poop-in-woods.html
http://www.camping-expert.com/how-to-shit-in-the-woods.html
https://www.halfwayanywhere.com/trails/pacific-crest-trail/how-to-shit-in-woods/
https://www.wikihow.com/Defecate-Outdoors
https://www.halfwayanywhere.com/trails/pacific-crest-trail/how-to-actually-shit-in-the-woods/
https://www.backpacker.com/skills/how-to-poop-in-the-woods
last but not least - a book I have given to the females in my family - https://www.amazon.com/How-Shit-Woods-3rd-Environmentally/dp/1580083633

The US Army has females in the boonies.
The Israeli armed forces does also.
The TOP WWII Russian Snipers were women.

I don't know if they still have them but early on a huge number of Israeli children were in Kibutz (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz for detail)
On interesting thing was how most romantic relationships among teenage/early adult Kibutz members didn't happen among members of the same Kibutz.
So it may be after the initial titillation of having a "Girl" along is over it becomes they become just another Scout.

As I see it Boy Scouting has two choices:
It can be inclusive, concentrate on the commonalities, and come out stronger
OR
It can die.

Am I trying to see the positives - you bet.  I would hate for the wonderful organization that Lord Baden-Powell started to die.
WILL SCOUTING HAVE TO STRICTLY ENFORCE the rules - you bet.

[ken_]

"I don't like it but CHANGE is here."

Sometimes - in fact often - change is for the worse. This is an example of change for the worse, in my opinion. I was a Boy Scout for a couple of years too. There is no way today that I would allow my son to join the Boy Scouts. They've become just another "progressive" indoctrination tool IMO. There are much better options than Boy Scouts. So sad to see the way "progress" politicizes and ruins everything, even things that weren't political in the past, and IMO should still not be politicized.

[Reasonable Rascal]

Former Scout and Scouter and I am an Eagle. I offer my comments on the basis of what I have observed over a couple of decades plus with the program:

Explorer and Venture units that have girls tend to be either pretty much all female, or have very strong leadership and exceptional young women as members. The average teenage female in this country would NOT fit in to the program.

I had a Scout dad who insisted on bringing his daughter to no few events until I finally had to completely kabosh any participation beyond strictly family events. The distraction factor was far too great and it actually damaged our troop insofar as disrupting meetings and campouts. It came to the point that if she couldn't go then dad couldn't either (split custody situation), and I had to cancel a canoe trip because of that, but so be it.

Scouting is a coed program in many countries, and few people know it but Baden-Powell was actually the founder of the Girl Guides. But it was also a separate program. In the US it is very separate and diverged many, many years ago from what Baden-Powell imagined.

The blending of boys and girls in the types of activities the BSA is famous for creates more problems than not, and I say that from my experiences as a Scout and a Scouter.

Yes, the program change is for economic reasons and no other, make no mistake about that. The PTB in the National office took the wrong approach to declining membership and saw inclusion (gays) as a saving move. Instead we now have Trail Life USA as a national, expanding Scouting program alternative when Christian people took their sons and moved away. Included in that number was the #2 legal counsel for the BSA.

RR

[WolfBrother]

The blending of boys and girls in the types of activities the BSA is famous for creates more problems than not, and I say that from my experiences as a Scout and a Scouter.

Yes it did and will continue to do so for several years.  THEN as having girls hiking at Philmont, holding positions of authority (APL, PL, ASPL, SPL etc) in the troop, etc become common - as it has in the Army and Air Force and Navy the problems will taper off.  Will they go away?  NOT JUST NO BUT H3LL NO because people will be people.

Based on what I've written folks might think I'm in favor of it, I am NOT.  My druthers would be to bring it back like I remember it in the early 60's.  But it is what it is.  I will be looking into Trail Life USA.

[pengyou]

So what about Girl Scouts? Can they continue to be gender specific?

[owldancer]

Well my son is three merit badges from Eagle, and his Eagle project.  So I will be in the Boy Scouts at least another year.
He will also have six palms as well by then if not seven.

One of the fathers is already pushing for his daughter to enter "Scouts".

This summer we will have a couple outings where family's can come for a canoe trip.
These are very different from a boys outing.

The rest of the year when we go camping it is no matter the weather. 
I can see it being a problem when young girls are present.
Whether it is all mud, sun shine, freezing cold we camp.

I know females can handle it but I would always want a mother along if there are any girls without a parent there.

[pqtb]

coed trips will need both female and male leadership present to prevent someone playing the inappropriate sexual contact card.   I wish the scouts the best of in the political correct world.

[WolfBrother]

coed trips will need both female and male leadership present to prevent someone playing the inappropriate sexual contact card.   I wish the scouts the best of in the political correct world.

The Troop Committee for my Son's Scout troop had a number of female member.  It was common for one or more to be part of most outings.  The reason?  Not all males who marry and make children are Men.  The Mother's who took part did so "with both feet". 

You are correct about needing to be able to prevent the inappropriate sexual contact card. 

[Reasonable Rascal]

I have had mothers go to summer camp with me because I couldn't get any fathers. I had one mother tent with her son because there were no leader arrangements available for her (shared the site with an LDS troop, and the leader wouldn't share the cabin with a female in one of the bunks).

It is not the mothers I worry about, it is pre-teen girls trying to equal the similarly-aged boys, and immature behaviors by girls and boys tossed into the mix of situations not geared for them individually.

RR

[WolfBrother]

What I am afraid it's going to become:

https://townhall.com/political-cartoons/2018/05/03/157312

[Reasonable Rascal]

Yep, it is heading that way.

RR

[ken_]

Sad but true

[owldancer]

Shucks WolfBrother that cartoon expresses my feelings in so many way about what appears to be happening.

Especially when you look at some of the new merit badges, wording in updated merit badge books, and the new outdoor code.

I will stick with the old Boy Scouts code I know.
You didn't need special new pledges to take care of the outdoors.