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Wood Gas and old machines

Offline Clay

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Wood Gas and old machines
« on: August 23, 2015, 08:52:57 AM »
Is there any interest amongst you all about either wood gasification or old diesel engines?

I have an old Lister CS clone running a ST generator head. I have a ton of info and experience with it, if anyone cares.

Also, recently I came across some good info on wood gasification that goes well beyond the old FEMA handbook. If there's interest in that I can share too.
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Offline Jerry D Young

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 10:38:44 AM »
I definitely have an interest, but just no wherewithal at the moment to pursue it.

Jerry
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Jerry D Young

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and always remember TANSTAAFL

(TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert A. Heinlein)

Offline TWP

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 10:58:10 AM »
I too am interested, but lack the ability to pursue it beyond pure knowledge.

If you have digital documents about it, could you post them here?

If you have hardcopy, I'd like to read it.
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Offline David-Audrey

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 12:24:02 PM »
We would also like to learn as much as you can share. Currently we are not in a position to act on it. But will sure keep it in mind if our circumstances change.
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Offline Clay

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 03:23:26 PM »
OK, here we go.

Wood gas youtube videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YieLQOmbR0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojOM4tY73po
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1MC8jNq4vc                   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaVhqivSah0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1nUC1e07OU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmnbMnZpjA   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJC6tdRK0yc

This book is an excellent addition to the library, this is the description bellow.

 The Wood Gasifier Builder's Bible

http://woodgasifierplans.com for more info.

In this book you will learn how to build a WWII wood gasifier with advanced shaker grate, heat recycling and automation that eliminate common gasifier problems. We took the Imbert Gasifier and gave it a total makeover with locally available DIY materials.

In this video, author Ben Peterson gives you a sneak peak at the book and shows you unique footage of building a wood gasifier as an alternate energy source that can heat your home, make electricity to go off grid and alternative fuel vehicles in times of oil shock and shortage.

Ben is handing down his knowledge gained at Victory Gasworks to the next generation in this new book. He has built many downdraft gasifiers, including the "Doomsday Preppers Gasifier" for engineer775 (Scott Hunt) that appeared on the show.

Make biomass fuels by distilling wood gas from branches and construction debris. Building a gasifier is fun, but converting biomass to energy for free is AWESOME! This is the best survival skill there is. Period.

The wood gas generator is a micro refinery that allows you to wood fuel engines. It's petro free and proven for over 100 years. There is some great footage of a Kubota wood gasification generator that was made to run on wood fuel or propane. The machine has a powerful gasifier blower that gives it quick start times and ample gas flow, perfect for storing wood gas.

Sure there are free plans out there, like the FEMA wood gasifier, but do you want to make tar? You could build a gek wood gasifier, but I think you will find this design better balanced and easier to build. For 1/3 the price of a leaf wood gasifier, you can build your own and gain from the experience learned over 20,000 hours that made it into THIS DESIGN.

Woodgas technology for the common man has made a leap forward with this new book and the work of other DIY'ers like Wayne Keith and Vesa Mikkonen.

As an added bonus Ben is also publishing a workshop to build a wood gasifier air mixer or an "Elect ron ic Carburetor" as he calls it. This is the missing ingredient for thousands of builders trying to make woodgas power in their first or 10th gasifier build.

Get your copy of The Wood Gasifier Builder's Bible at:
http://woodgasifierplans.com

Air fuel mixer at:
http://electroniccarburetor.com

I'm also attaching the original fema manual for those of you that don't have it.
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Offline Clay

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 03:31:44 PM »
www.utterpower.com is the go to website for these types of projects. He used to sell woodgas kits, but hasn't done much with it lately.

This is the text from the page that is now MIA:
      

Gasification Plant

You may have read about these!

We have them in stock!

Send for price delivered to a dock near you

Above: The two main components, other parts not shown.

Here's a favorite Aussie story about a mobile wood gasification plant

The Assembly on the left is where the gasification takes place, it's heavy, and the quality of fabrication was far better than what I had expected.   The square assembly on the right is both a condenser and a filter for the producer gas being made. That little door in the upper right is where you put charcoal for filtration of the gas, a good portion of the unit is full of water, and there is a upper and lower water fitting to trickle in some cool water if desired.  In china, this unit is used to make cooking gas, in fact there's a cooking stove that comes with the unit that even has a push button igniter built in. The brief instructions that are found in the box, say this unit can be shut down for 10 hours and then restarted without re lighting the fire box. I have talked to friends in UK that suggest a setup like this makes plenty of gas to run a pickup, and the preferred fuel is charcoal because it makes such a large amount of clean and BTU rich gas. The charcoal is made by the user, and there is plenty of information on making your own. In China, they use all kinds of stalks twigs, small branches and crop stubble, the dryer the better the gas.

What we know, is these units are big with survivalists, and peak oil people, there is all kinds of information about ho they were used during WWII  when other fuels were hard to find, and there were several cars that left the production line making use of a producer gas unit to feed the gas engine.

To my knowledge, there is the first container load of these here, but they are being used in a number of third world countries.

There is a catch! There are people stupid enough to drag a unit like this into the house, as it gets warm; they might sit around trying to get warm, this is not recommended, as there is always a possibility of a gas leak, and killing yourself or someone else. We are not experts at using these, in fact I've attempted to set up two of these systems, and had my arm twisted to sell them, so I have no personal experience.

This particular unit has a 120 volt DC unit, it uses a rectifier, and runs off 120 VAC, but this unit runs off cheap Modified Sine Wave inverters better than induction motors, or so I am told.

OK, some call it an appliance, some call it ready to go, but we cal it a kit for legal reasons. It will be your job to fit any and every safety device required for any and every place you decide to set this up. We only recommend that you operate this gas plant in the presence of a fully qualified Engineer, and that you have any and all licenses and approvals for any installation.

Send for information, let us know your location for a delivered quote to a shipping dock near you.   

 

George B.

 

Following is a write up about this unit and a disclaimer, the language may contain inaccuracies, I have no 'hands on knowledge' of this unit yet due to my many commitments elsewhere.

 Introduction-These producer gas (gasifier) units are designed to use farm and forestry waste to produce gases to operate appliances, such as small stoves for heating, and are also just about perfectly sized for low HP gasoline and slow-speed diesel engines to replace part of the diesel fuel. They are near-ideal for both the casual experimenter, as well as  serious off-grid users who require low or no cost fuels to produce power (such as for electrical generation) to maintain a "Western" high standard of living.

These units will produce gases which are environmentally low in undesirable by-products, and are a superior way to reduce greenhouse problems (protect the environment), provide alternative, practical methods for energy production, and help maintain a high standard of living.

The gasification process is simplicity itself; load a reactor (combustor) with combustible material with under 20% moisture content, dry it from the air movement past it and heat from the nearby combustion chamber until it starts to gasify, use the resulting gas and carbon along with introduced air in the combustion chamber to give off combustibles described later, cool and dry them in a separate "wet" filter, and hence, have this gaseous fuel available as needed.

The combustion chamber also yields C+Ho2=H2+CO, and C+CO2=2CO, and reacting with the charcoal produced, gives off CO, H2, CH4, etc.

Installation-It is always best to use these units in an area with unlimited ventilation, and where any fire danger is minimized. Please remember all equipment of ANY type is dangerous, and its use should only be contemplated, never actually carried out.

1)Most people will use these in an  outdoor shed, perhaps under an eave, or a covered porch. It is always a good idea to keep them under cover to prevent corrosion etc.

2)Steel, high-temp rubber, or even CPV pipe can be used to connect the gasifier with the intended appliance/engine. Remember, ANY air leaks will degrade the gas quality. All connections should be level to prevent water accumulation in pipes/hoses that otherwise will eventually block the pipe/hose. In other words, no sagging pipes!

3)If a unit is ever used in an indoor area, very good ventilation is a must!!

4)Any ventilation pipes should be run outside, not terminated indoors!!

5)The filter has water pipes which must be connected for cooling, and should be leak-free.

6)There is a water overflow outlet on the back of the filter unit, and the outlet of the hose attached to this should be higher than the input water hose fitting. When not being used, you can then lower the hose and allow the water to drain.

7)To review, install where there is good ventilation, make all fittings leak-free, and do not place in an open outdoor environment where it is subject to bad weather, snow, high winds, etc.

Use-
1)Fill the filter chamber with activated charcoal, or a filter media such as sawdust, or any finely ground plant material.

2)Make sure the filter chamber door has no leaks!!

3)Using the water hose behind the filter, fill with water and keep the water level between 4 and 5".

4)Using the water hose on the UPPER LEFT SIDE of the filter, fill that tank completely.

5)Check to see that the ash door is well-sealed, and make sure the valves are closed.

6) Verify that the hose/pipe between the producer gas unit and the engine has no leaks.

Operation
1)Turn on the fan

2)Start the engine on its idle fuel, and open the valve on the bypass exhaust.

3)Plug in the exhaust, and load the combustion hopper until it is half full of a suitable fire starting material.

4)Ignite the material, and add more material until it is full. Once it has burnt down a bit, and a good hot fire is assured, fill with wood pellets, chips, coal, etc, etc.

5)After the material has been burning one or two minutes, crack the valve to the engine, and after it accelerates, turn off the bypass exhaust.

6)Control the gas producing rate of the unit by adjusting the valve to the engine.

7)Add suitable wood pellets or chips, coal, etc, to the hopper as necessary. Remember to always be careful not to allow combustion with fresh air which can cause an explosion!! REMEMBER TO TURN OFF THE FAN and shut the output valve off BEFORE OPENING THE FUEL HOPPER DOOR!!!!

Specifications

1)Gas output is about 5 CFM

2)Gasification efficiency is about 70%

3)The continuous power output from the gas is about 7-9 HP, this could be far greater, or lesser depending on the fuel you gasify.

4)THE USER UNDERSTANDS THAT COMBUSTIBLE GASES CAN BE LETHAL, AND IF HE OR SHE IS UNSURE AS TO SAFETY, THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY SHOULD NOT OPERATE THE UNIT, AND SHOULD USE IT ONLY FOR STATIC DISPLAY PURPOSES.

5)The user also understands that metal parts can cut, fire can burn, and wood pellets and chips, etc, can be harmful if chewed or ingested, and if they are uncertain as to whether they can be safe, they should seal the unit in a suitable thick material such as clear plexi-glass, or have it sealed by a trained professional, and use it only as a display "under plastic".

6)The user also is reminded that the lifting of heavy weights can cause troubles, such as muscle strains, ruptures, herniation, and if there is any question as to any lifting, they should hire professionals.

7) The user also understands that, since this unit was assembled in a remote location (A Foreign Country!), there could be problems with germs, etc, and that if there is any question as to the safety of the user(s), they should wear full sterile gear to prevent contamination, or hire professionals for this purpose.

8) The seller HIGHLY RECOMMENDS THAT NO ONE EVER ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING DANGEROUS, OR THAT IS POSSIBLY DANGEROUS, AND REMEMBER THAT THE SAFEST COURSE OF ACTION IS TO DO NOTHING AT ALL!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please Note, Producer Gas is nothing new, and many small towns had their own gas plants that made gas to light the town's gas street lights, many readers might have seen the town's employee go from light to light, turning on the gas, and lighting same with a tool on a stick, and a lighted wick in old movies, sometimes, this was an added responsibility of the 'town crier'.

So what's different about this ready made unit, and some of those home built units they sell plans for? this unit, is designed to take the heat, the material used to build it is heavy, this is not made of stuff that will soon burn out and fail..     

There are numerous articles on the net about wood gas, and other producer gas generating plants. There are a number of plants using saw dust that in turn run small generating plants on site to run tools and lighting in wood shops and furniture shops, as the price of energy rises, gasification becomes more popular.

It is interesting to note that North American Farmers are becoming more interested in Growing oil crops for fuel and making bio-diesel as part of their farm fuel. The waste product (seed cake), is often used for cattle feed, but I understand that this waste product also makes and excellent pellet and will burn nicely in a gasifier. Again, these are things I'm told and I have no first hand experience with them. If you are interested in seed oil press or pelletizers, they are now being sold in North America, I do not carry these products, but as you might understand, I do not recommend anyone that doesn't have a good reputation with their past customers, and a track record.  I do not get paid a commission or profit from the referral other than feeling good about sending traffic to a fellow DIyer with a great reputation.

More to follow

George B.

 

Following is information and comment from the field, most of what I'll post has technical info I think might be helpful.

Yes, I would say you are right about the dangers, in WWII the hazard from CO poisoning from these was well know, yet careless people lost their lives.
Users have to remember that 0.1% to 0.5% of CO in the air will wipe you out and these will put out 20-35% CO of the gas coming out.
 
The negative pressure side is not much of a danger, but after the fan every connection must be gas tight!  Going into an engine is about the safest because it's negative pressure all the way to the engine.  The real hazard is starting up and shutting down when the engine is not running, (or the burner is not burning the gas).  Users must be told; "Must use in a well ventilated area, and if you don't know what that means, use only outside!"

George comment: Moving the fan to the appliance end of the delivery system >could< make the system safer
 
Any installation should have a CO detector in the area, a luxury they did not have in WWII.
 
All that said, this is something I was thinking about welding up for myself this summer.  I live in a rural area and I always thought it was a waste to chip up or compost wood and trimmings without turning it into some useful energy.  How much do one of these go for?

Dean (Engineer)

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Offline Clay

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 03:50:50 PM »
I'm sure that woodgas is going to be a lot of a stretch for most people, including myself. That's where the lister clones come in.

I have a Lister CS 6/1 clone personally. It's a single cylinder 6 horsepower engine built in India and distributed by PowerSolutions. I have it running a ST5 generator head currently, which is a pretty good match for the motor. These are old designs, and are by no mean slick or stream lined. What they are is reliable and easily repaired in the field using simple tools. To me, that is important. Many of these motors are seeing 100,000 hours between rebuilds. The other benefit of this set up is that it currently is running on about one PINT of diesel an hour with a 3kw load. That equates out to one gallon per 8 hours of run time or 3 gallons a day. I also have a 5kw gas generator that while running the exact same loads consumes around 1 gallon an hour. That's eight times the consumption on a motor that is designed to run for 10,000 hours MAYBE between rebuilds and burning a fuel that is not easily stored long term. The Lister can also burn waste veggie oil and waste motor oil, which makes it a true SHTF generator.

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Offline Clay

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 04:01:45 PM »
I'm currently swapping the Lister Clone and ST generator over to a trailer mounted configuration. The Old Girl lived a nice life on the property, but it's going to be needed for a couple of uses here soon.

The next layout I will incorporate a few design changes to the previous set up. First, I will add a starter/generator from an electric golf cart. These work as both a starter and a 12 volt generator, allowing for start of the motor but then once it's running the batteries will be receiving a charge. After that I'll put a new radiator on it. The previous set up used a barrel and thermo-siphon set up, but I hope to keep this fairly light and easy to move around. I'll add a radiator from a Geo Metro with an electric fan, but I'll also add a bypass loop into the mix for a heat exchanger. From there I should be able to do hot water or possibly a heating set up for the cabin.

When I build the enclosure around the motor I'll add racks for solar panels as well.

What do you think so far?
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Offline TWP

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 10:44:00 AM »
Ok, I'm impressed.

Thanks for the very thorough set of information.  It goes into my collection.

Now I need the where-with-all and time to actually do something with this...
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Offline Clay

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Re: Wood Gas and old machines
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 10:51:50 AM »
Yeah, old diesel engines rock. Maybe once I get this thing road legal I'll tow it up for a demo.

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/nav=item.view&id=321826806343&alt=web

Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm going to swap in a small turbocharger made for a motorcycle as well. I just need to fire up the mill and machine up a few adapter plates. It should make it more efficient. I'm looking into how to make it run quiet at the same time, because I think that's an important part of the mix. It's just not so easy. The first install I had on this guy I ran the exhaust into a gravel pit design and that worked pretty good. It was in an insulated shed, and you could barely hear it 30 feet away. Now that it's mobile this won't be so easy, but I'll get there some day.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 03:09:57 PM by Clay »
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